WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.040 00:00:09.420 --> 00:00:11.014 I have been thinking about that 00:00:11.068 --> 00:00:12.414 because mice for example 00:00:12.649 --> 00:00:14.242 obviously they don't go into a room 00:00:14.267 --> 00:00:15.854 they don't open a door to go into a room 00:00:15.868 --> 00:00:17.601 but they have burrows and things like that 00:00:17.676 --> 00:00:18.763 they go underground and they may have rooms 00:00:18.830 --> 00:00:22.500 and they may have rooms, that will have different acoustics. 00:00:22.890 --> 00:00:25.218 Often when you are moving through open space, 00:00:25.725 --> 00:00:27.378 the sound of a river - let's say - 00:00:27.479 --> 00:00:29.112 can come quite suddenly 00:00:29.203 --> 00:00:31.703 depending on the geography. 00:00:32.054 --> 00:00:36.312 So you can have instances, where the sound is more gradual. 00:00:36.404 --> 00:00:39.540 But you can also have instances, where there is a sudden increase 00:00:39.622 --> 00:00:41.295 or change in the acoustics. 00:00:41.708 --> 00:00:44.215 So I think that relationship between movement 00:00:44.290 --> 00:00:46.386 an how sound changes 00:00:46.639 --> 00:00:51.939 is extremely evelutionary relevant for all animals. 00:00:52.260 --> 00:00:55.350 That's because we have the anechoic space, the anechoic chamber. 00:00:55.530 --> 00:00:56.940 That is very artificial. 00:00:57.240 --> 00:00:59.115 If you are out there in the real life 00:00:59.248 --> 00:01:00.157 in real world 00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:00.336 relevant 00:01:00.360 --> 00:01:02.465 you will basically have always reflections 00:01:02.532 --> 00:01:05.390 and if it's just the reflection on the ground. 00:01:05.550 --> 00:01:07.381 The only time when you don't have that 00:01:07.432 --> 00:01:10.682 if you are on the top of the mountain and there is fresh snow. 00:01:11.370 --> 00:01:14.586 The limitation in improving brain reading, 00:01:14.686 --> 00:01:16.890 so these techniques that map mental states 00:01:16.890 --> 00:01:17.890 to brain states, 00:01:17.944 --> 00:01:20.464 is not just the limitation of MRI. 00:01:20.850 --> 00:01:22.110 That is a big problem. 00:01:22.440 --> 00:01:24.570 But the biggest problem is actually 00:01:25.225 --> 00:01:28.285 that you need labels when you use machine learning approaches. 00:01:28.470 --> 00:01:29.608 A lable means: 00:01:29.850 --> 00:01:33.990 What is the person, who is in my scanner, is experiencing right now? 00:01:34.260 --> 00:01:36.150 And this is a problem of phenomenology. 00:01:36.480 --> 00:01:39.600 That is actually one of the biggest challenges in this field. 00:01:39.767 --> 00:01:42.930 In my eyes, we have a fundamental 00:01:43.140 --> 00:01:46.890 possibly even principle limitation in phenomenology. 00:01:47.340 --> 00:01:48.750 Oh sure dualismus is 00:01:49.028 --> 00:01:50.708 not a very convincing position. 00:01:51.033 --> 00:01:52.675 But as long as monism 00:01:52.708 --> 00:01:56.067 only offers a stupid explanation, 00:01:56.099 --> 00:01:58.291 Yes please let's drive for dualism 00:01:58.400 --> 00:02:00.420 just to keep the question open. 00:02:01.620 --> 00:02:04.260 I am joking, but I mean this very seriously. 00:02:05.628 --> 00:02:08.250 So far neuro science does not offer us 00:02:08.528 --> 00:02:10.636 any convincing explanation. 00:02:10.811 --> 00:02:12.060 Nobody doubts 00:02:12.360 --> 00:02:14.819 that emotions are bodily processes 00:02:15.002 --> 00:02:17.310 that thinking is related to bodily processes. 00:02:17.580 --> 00:02:18.990 But ther is no clue 00:02:19.410 --> 00:02:21.630 how these bodily processes 00:02:21.930 --> 00:02:24.359 are related to what's meaningful 00:02:24.540 --> 00:02:26.465 in the way how we interpret 00:02:26.682 --> 00:02:28.285 and experience our emotions 00:02:28.344 --> 00:02:30.360 or how we develop thoughts. 00:02:30.810 --> 00:02:32.280 And I think this brings to the point 00:02:33.270 --> 00:02:34.619 what self-organization is: 00:02:35.130 --> 00:02:37.080 because you have microsopic rule 00:02:37.350 --> 00:02:39.086 and you get a macroscopic pattern 00:02:39.186 --> 00:02:41.370 which is not represented in this microsopic rule. 00:02:41.760 --> 00:02:43.440 What I wanted to comment 00:02:43.827 --> 00:02:46.020 on your stochasticity and hidden rules. 00:02:46.500 --> 00:02:48.480 I really like the idea of unfolding: 00:02:48.690 --> 00:02:49.690 unfolding is where a factor of time plays a role 00:02:49.860 --> 00:02:51.780 unfolding is where a factor of time plays a role 00:02:52.200 --> 00:02:53.520 and choices are made. 00:02:53.940 --> 00:02:55.195 But once you make one choice 00:02:55.229 --> 00:02:58.680 you have only another choice to make and not all freedom of choices. 00:02:58.980 --> 00:03:00.780 And that's a kind of evolutionary system. 00:03:01.290 --> 00:03:04.210 Maybe you can think for the next symposium of this sort 00:03:04.292 --> 00:03:08.130 to invite some sort of developmental biologist 00:03:08.610 --> 00:03:11.040 to speak about it from a conceptual point of view. 00:03:11.340 --> 00:03:12.990 That would spice up the discussion. 00:03:13.564 --> 00:03:15.436 Art exists right in the moment 00:03:15.526 --> 00:03:17.687 or flourishs, 00:03:17.969 --> 00:03:20.902 it grows from its humus, 00:03:22.548 --> 00:03:26.521 when it starts to speak to its surroundings. 00:03:26.628 --> 00:03:27.994 And this enviroment is reacting, 00:03:28.021 --> 00:03:29.800 when this impulse 00:03:30.180 --> 00:03:31.320 creates a resonance. 00:03:31.770 --> 00:03:32.970 The resonance in turn 00:03:33.390 --> 00:03:35.430 leads to an interpretation. 00:03:35.760 --> 00:03:37.017 Then you are involved in a process 00:03:37.083 --> 00:03:39.250 and that is a negotiation. 00:03:39.660 --> 00:03:40.740 That is what art stands for to me. 00:03:41.520 --> 00:03:43.208 Dissonance is something completely different 00:03:43.266 --> 00:03:44.820 in my opinion, at least in science: 00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:48.720 This is rather the primal confusion, 00:03:48.930 --> 00:03:49.930 00:03:49.966 --> 00:03:52.156 the origin for everything 00:03:52.470 --> 00:03:54.120 you want to discover 00:03:54.219 --> 00:03:56.213 is the initial confusion 00:03:56.270 --> 00:03:58.436 provoking questions how can that be? 00:03:58.592 --> 00:04:00.512 That makes no sense. 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:05.655 And this dissonance is exactly what drives us all the time. 00:04:05.730 --> 00:04:08.940 This is exactly, what we are looking for. 00:04:09.120 --> 00:04:12.540 I do not believe in mythologies of self-organisation and 00:04:12.870 --> 00:04:16.020 self-organising systems, as long as there are still humans involved. 00:04:18.460 --> 00:04:21.560 However, there are always moments 00:04:21.626 --> 00:04:23.551 when biological complexity 00:04:23.610 --> 00:04:25.718 can actually become a role model 00:04:25.760 --> 00:04:28.440 and continues to set the standard. 00:04:28.535 --> 00:04:31.159 That is actually basically the ideal case. 00:04:31.316 --> 00:04:35.326 Because what we now have with new network grammars 00:04:35.526 --> 00:04:38.190 in machine learning and AI 00:04:38.550 --> 00:04:41.159 is still based on crude simplifications. 00:04:41.334 --> 00:04:44.120 And precisely these insight such as 00:04:44.195 --> 00:04:47.130 how to generate the motives in the network 00:04:47.340 --> 00:04:49.710 and what are the learning rules, 00:04:49.890 --> 00:04:52.150 that you implement there, 00:04:52.260 --> 00:04:55.651 this requires mental work 00:04:55.890 --> 00:04:58.042 and also accumulation of evidence. 00:04:59.070 --> 00:05:02.586 That is essentially where I think investments need to be made, 00:05:02.620 --> 00:05:03.960 really into theory. 00:05:04.410 --> 00:05:07.290 This changed obviously in the late 00:05:07.500 --> 00:05:10.120 sixties and seventies, 00:05:10.186 --> 00:05:12.750 when this word neuro science also came up. 00:05:13.050 --> 00:05:14.670 That's a kind of process. 00:05:14.940 --> 00:05:16.871 That's not without complications, 00:05:17.021 --> 00:05:20.321 that we now take this for granted 00:05:20.346 --> 00:05:22.440 that these transfers can be made. 00:05:22.620 --> 00:05:24.690 Well, just speaking personally, 00:05:24.782 --> 00:05:26.890 the greatest feeling of happiness is there, 00:05:26.932 --> 00:05:28.775 when you disprove yourself. 00:05:28.902 --> 00:05:30.921 In other words, when you ultimately realise 00:05:30.982 --> 00:05:33.122 that what you previously assumed 00:05:33.165 --> 00:05:34.860 with a certain satisfaction 00:05:35.231 --> 00:05:36.623 is actually quite different. 00:05:36.690 --> 00:05:38.953 And that's just exactly it, 00:05:39.620 --> 00:05:43.690 that is really the moment when you have found something new - 00:05:43.765 --> 00:05:46.050 that is THE moment!